Interview with Pamela Cook

Pamela Cook was born in Birmingham in 1968 and is the youngest of six children. Her father had been a monk for seven years in Ireland. Pamela says: “He loved it actually, but he left on the day that he was due to take his final vows, and he met my mother shortly afterwards.  He was a very humble and a very great man.”

She says of her childhood: “It was a delightful childhood.  I was born in a slum which is probably something that is very rare in the UK these days.  I was the youngest of six children. There was no indoor toilet, no electricity, and it was very close to a prison.” The family moved to a new town in Northamptonshire when Pamela was three.   She adds: “That was big news because we had an indoor loo and electricity. It was quite a pivotal time.”

Pamela says that her parents instilled the family with strong values, explaining: “What fuelled my ambition and drive were the very strong morals installed in us by my parents, in terms of work ethics and doing things the right way morally. Although we didn’t have any money, we never went without food or clothes.  We never really realised that we were poor because we all had strong work ethics as children.” Pamela worked from the age of fourteen and adds: “as soon as you could work, you could buy things for yourself from a very early age, so we never really felt that we had gone without.”

Pamela attended the local primary and comprehensive school in Northamptonshire close to the family home.

She says of the experience: “I had no concept of wealth or class at that time, and even though it was a state comprehensive, it was in a very rough area.  The middle-class children from the surrounding villages went there. I had no concept that my knitted cardigan and my very sensible shoes would set me aside so much. I think I was the object of, not ridicule so much, but it certainly wasn’t bees to a honeypot.  It was a bit of survival. There was a fair few fights that I got into just trying to hold my own. There were a few scary walks home, but it was just a case of getting from A to B, getting home safely, and if I had a few bruises on the way, it was not really the end of the world. It just became your normal and you didn’t really ever sit back and assess whether it was fair or whether it was OK; it was just the way it was.”

Pamela says that she did not enjoy a great deal about school and found it boring at times. She studied economics, history, and sociology for A Level. She adds: “I missed a lot of the sixth form, purely just looking at external interests and sneaking off to work.  I enjoyed sport and drama more, neither of which I excelled at, but thoroughly enjoyed.”

As well as studying, Pamela worked several jobs from the age of fourteen, including working in a newsagent on Monday and Tuesday evenings, running the newsagent in the town centre on a Saturday for which she received just over £2 an hour. At sixteen she added to her roles when she applied for Waitrose. She did two evening shifts and one weekend day shift looking after the cereal aisle. She adds: “I was very proud of that cereal aisle, it was always very well-presented. In between that, on a Sunday I started silver service waitressing.”

  She says the jobs were a means to an end allowing her to finance herself and buy clothes, get her hair done etc, adding: “it was a very simple choice, there were no savings, there were no bank accounts, there wasn’t any other way of achieving those goals.”

Pamela’s father did not believe that university was for girls and so while her brothers all went on to further study, Pamela and her sister were not allowed to go. Pamela explains: “It was fairly traditional Irish upbringing in so much that on Sundays it the boys would go to the pub and the girls would do the Sunday roast, and then everyone would come together and we would do all the clearing up.  The boys were the ones that were the key decision-makers actually. I never stopped to think about the impact of that or the fairness of it; I just accepted it. My brothers went to university, but when it came to me and my elder sister, my father certainly didn’t support it, he didn’t think it was appropriate. However, I was happy because I had made the decision to go travelling.”

After completing her A levels, Pamela went to Australia where she stayed with her uncle, a bishop in Western Australia. She says of the experience: “I realised during that time how little I knew. It was my first ever flight was to Australia; I had never been to an airport before, I had no idea what to expect.  I was influenced by the realisation of how little I knew and how ignorant I was, but also how much I could help in the church environment.  For example, I was very active in supporting and helping a lot of the community groups through the local nuns and bishop. I really enjoyed that. I was a ‘check-out chick’ at Woolworths in Australia as well, and that was a great experience. So, I learnt to adapt to new situations very quickly, having not been exposed to many historically.”

Upon her return to the UK, Pamela saw a job advertised for ‘telesales’, applied and was successful. She says: “I knew that I needed to get a job. I still didn’t really know what I wanted to do and I saw a job advertised for telesales, it was being paid £4,100 at the time, and I thought, ‘that sounds great’.  Because it was called telesales, that’s what I thought I was doing; selling tellies. I went to the interview, I got the job straight away, but they didn’t actually ever describe at the interview what I would be doing so I was quite shocked on the first day. I had done lots of research about televisions which to this day has been useless. I was selling over the telephone, in the computer games industry.  I was working for a distributor in Northamptonshire.  I worked my way up to lead the team eventually.”

Pamela puts her success down to being in a growing industry that provided lots of opportunities to people who were hard-working.  She says: “It was actually fairly easy to make an impression because there was so much need for more and more senior people. I discovered during those early days was that I could manage staff and that I was fairly good at it. It was by pure accident but as a result I ended up running the 29-strong sales team. I did that over a course of a few years. I was able to travel a lot to America to the burgeoning headquarters in California and started to work with the Japanese companies Sega and Nintendo. It was huge exposure at a very young age. I’m not sure whether it was because I was in the right place at the right time or whether my skills were right, and I’ll probably never know, but it worked. I had this, this ambition to always earn more than my age and that happened a lot sooner than I planned.”

Having been so successful working with the distributors, in 1994 Pamela was headhunted to be a UK sales manager at Codemasters, a publisher of the games, based in Warwickshire. She adds: “That was different again, I had never done face-to-face sales, I had never travelled as a rep on the road.  So it was a brand new experience.”

 The recruiting manager had wanted a man in the role and Pamela had been selected as the only female interviewee among nine men. Pamela adds: “It was interesting from gender point of view, in so much that the chap who was recruiting made it very clear internally that he only wanted a man.  He didn’t want a woman.”

The final selection came down to two candidates, Pamela and a man. It included a presentation and an IQ test. The man was told that the candidate who secured the highest score in the test would be appointed. Pamela says: “And it just so happened it was me. The only reason it was me was that I had done my research. I had looked at tests and I had understood them, the other chap hadn’t.  However, it was made very clear that I was not the favourite by the person I had to report in to. He gave me a lot of grief in the early days for being a woman because he didn’t believe that women could do the job. That was a bit of a wake-up for me. It was the first time I had ever been judged on gender, which was interesting, because I had never really thought about it as being an issue before. I was glad to get through it, but it wasn’t an easy ride.”

Pamela stayed with the company for eighteen months before being head-hunted once more.

After eighteen months at Codemasters, Pamela was headhunted by Interactive Marketing which represented several publishers in the marketplace. Pamela was invited to manage one of their rep teams which they had set up for each one of their publishers, one of which was Codemasters. Pamela says: “Codemasters were very supportive of that because they could see I had almost outgrown the role anyway, so that was a very positive move on both sides.”

Following her success with Interactive Marketing, Pamela was invited to join Interplay, one of the American publishers which was being represented by Interactive Marketing. Interplay was subsequently bought by Virgin Media.

In 1999 Pamela joined Infoshare – a UK start-up. The company helps businesses use their data for good by using its technology for good.

She explains the move: “Being in computer games for so long was terrific, it was B2B business, it was very successful, easy and well paid. It was almost a breeze, but I felt something lacking.  It wasn’t vacuous as such, but it was meaningless and I really wanted to work for an organisation where it actually made a positive difference to people’s lives, as opposed to providing entertainment in their living room or bedroom.

“When I was speaking to the founders of Infoshare, and I realised that what they were trying to do was use data for good, it actually struck a real chord inside me in so much that I joined them. It was probably half the salary that I had been on and was a risk into the unknown. I think I was employee number three or four, at the time.  It was a real start-up business. But I just felt, there was something that was burning in my belly that said this is a good thing, this is where you’ll do something where people will really benefit in the community. It just struck a chord so I threw my lot in with them. They didn’t have a printer, they didn’t have a sales strategy, they had absolutely nothing, but they had a real belief in creating a piece of technology that would make a difference.”

Pamela joined the two co-founders (two of her brothers) initially for as a three-month sabbatical but she ended up staying and is still with the company over twenty years later. She describes the founders as “real developers, real techies, real passionate, intelligent people, but with no experience of running an office or setting out a sales and marketing plan”.

She adds: “I had come from this fairly privileged position of having a PA and a big office in the West End and so the shock was quite apparent. I had to learn about ordering stationery and the real back to basics stuff.

“At times it was tricky, but the project that really got me going was trying to identify crime hotspots in a part of London. The reason the police were struggling was because the data they were looking at, which was from different data sources, whether that was local authority or fire or police, was so poor in its quality that they were struggling to identify where their real crime hotspots were.  By the time I joined Infoshare they had already developed the first throes of the technology which would help those police forces and those local authorities identify problem areas in the community.  That was the starting point.”

In the first ten years, Infoshare sold desktop solutions and Pamela went out as a rep on the road.  She explains: “I went really back to basics. It was literally getting in my car five days a week, knocking on doors of local authorities and councils and selling the concept of sharing data at its very basic level from a locations perspective and selling the benefits in. It worked because it was saving money, it was proven, and also there was good funding from Government for what was called Crime and Disorder Reduction Partnerships. I was quite naively hopping round the country bringing in the sales for a number of years and it was great. I rarely went into the office, we were keeping things going and we’d had some great successes. However, we lost our way a bit in so much that we hadn’t kept up to date with technology.  We hadn’t really looked at the market and made the best strategic decisions.”

As a result, in 2008/9 they realised they needed to make some changes and further investments. Pamela adds: “I wanted to make some really big investments, because I could see the power of making it into enterprise from desktop, and also, going for the larger opportunities in corporate life. I went on an investment round and it was the worst thing I’ve ever done.  This was my second big gender shock.”

Pamela reached a stage with a major investor where all that was left was for the CEO to sign on the dotted line at meeting arranged in a hotel near King’s Cross. Pamela continues:  “I was waiting in the hotel, sitting in one of those tall seats where you can’t see who’s in it, when behind me I heard the guy that I had been liaising with briefing his CEO. I heard him say, ‘Right, you’re going to meet Pamela Cook.  This is why, just a reminder, they’ve given you all the presentations.’  I heard the CEO say, ‘Are you kidding?  I’ve got to sit now with a woman, and you’re going to tell me I’ve got to invest with a woman, a female-led business?’  He said, ‘Forget it.’  And that’s before I met him.  I was absolutely mortified. He sat down with me.  He didn’t obviously know that I had overheard.  He was so rude, looking me up and down, and trying to assess me as a woman as opposed to a businessperson. That was a real shock to my system. The mistake I made was that I had invested so much time in building up that opportunity, that I had actually let some of the other sales opportunities slip.”

After this experience, Pamela realised that she needed to take matters into her own hands. She continues: “That’s when I thought I’ve got to make the choice.  If I really believe in this business, it’s time to put my money where my mouth is. I re-mortgaged my house and raised enough to get us through to the next three stages.  That’s when I took over the business rather than being a rep. Since then, I’ve been doing the dual role of CEO and getting involved in the sales process.”

In the last decade, Pamela says that the company has secured some great opportunities, she explains: “A lot of the investment that I put in went into developing the product so that we were scalable and flexible. We had been very restricted to desktop, so we made an enterprise version of the solutions that we provide, and we established some fantastic partnerships in the industry, the key suppliers to Government in particular.  As a result, we secured a large government contract in the financial side; we’ve secured the majority of police forces; and our biggest client was the Royal Mail. We are able to scale up to 300 million records a night in processing, and that’s been probably the biggest achievement, because we were head-to-head with a major global corporation to get that piece of business.  It was a real validation that, everything we had believed in, everything that we had put our investment in, had proven to be worthwhile.  That also fed into the SME business that I’m involved in with the Cabinet Office. If you really do fight hard, and you really do put a good story forward, you can get heard.”

On the subject of the importance of data integrity, Pamela says: “It’s still very much an education and we still find ourselves getting back to basics with people even now and explaining why it’s important to get the data right.”

She continues: “Data is quite a dry subject and sometimes people just want to have the graphs, the AI and the analysis, the exciting parts; and they don’t really want to have to think too much about the data.  However, we are seeing a huge increase in people respecting that since the pandemic and a realisation that they didn’t know who their most vulnerable people were, or, they couldn’t put their finger on people that needed to be shielding in terms of the database.  So, there has been some realisation, but it is still an educational journey that we’re on. So, whilst everybody recognises that it’s important to get the data right, there’s still a huge number of organisations that haven’t got it right.”

Pamela points to the large number of solutions doing what Infoshare does and therefore the are many organisations who are taking it seriously, however, she adds: “I think there is probably an equal number of organisations who are not, or who believe that if they have a great analysis tool, or a fantastic Power BI suite, that that alone will be enough, they don’t really need to worry about the underlying information.  So, it’s not necessarily a case of they don’t want to do it; they don’t really understand the importance of it, or they haven’t really taken the time to think about the logical steps to looking at their analysis.”

Pamela cites an example in the US where an AI project automatically sent out closure letters to tenants on their database who had not paid their rent. As a result, many people lost houses. Pamela says: “What’s transpired is lots of lawsuits against the authority doing that, because the underlying information wasn’t correct. Some of these people, not all of them, but some of them should never have received the letter in the first place. Often, it will take something like this for people to realise they need to think about their data, or the people looking at it are in a low level positions in the organisation and they have to really fight to be heard.  I still think there’s some way to go but it is absolutely getting better.”

After her own experiences, Pamela and Infoshare have ensured that diversity is important. She says: “I’m a big fan of flexibility in the workplace, we have a real mix of females and males, working mums, single parents, older men who were refused interviews because of their ages before they joined Infoshare, different ethnicities, and those who are gender fluid.

“It’s a case of embracing the need for flexibility, embracing the skillset, and actually allowing people to shine and work to what they can do, rather than the standard office, nine till five. That’s paid dividends; we’ve got a phenomenally loyal team, and the creativity that comes out of that is terrific. I certainly don’t allow egos to get in the way of business; there’s no place for politics or egos in the business; we’re very strict about that.”

Despite changes that are taking place in the recognition of the importance of greater diversity in the tech sector, in terms of investment in female entrepreneurs there are still issues. She says: “I think there’s a hell of a way to go for that. There was an opportunity a few years ago where we had been selected as a partner in an opportunity. However, when it came to it, we didn’t get awarded it because the old boys’ network had come into play. I found out afterwards that there had been a few golf rounds and a few nights out …. that was purely the boys getting together; there wasn’t a single female to be seen on those nights out. That used to happen an awful lot and I still think it happens but less and less, particularly as the public sector are getting more and more transparent in their procurements. I still go into a room and the people I’m selling to are still mostly men.  So, it’s great to see more women and more women in senior positions, so it’s definitely changing, but I still think it’s got some way to go.”

Asked what she would have done differently over her career, Pamela says: “I would have networked more when I was starting out with Infoshare.  That’s been something that perhaps I was a little bit reluctant to do; I was lacking a bit of confidence. I certainly would have not been quite so shy making some of those phone calls and I would have had perhaps more courage in my convictions. When you’re part of a small business and you’re doing something for the first time, it’s only afterwards that you can reflect and help other people in the same position.

“I think networking is absolutely key, not just for opportunities, but also for sense checking what you’re doing, or to have some peer-to-peer support, challenges, or mentors, because it’s been quite a lonely journey.”

Asked what her proudest achievement, Pamela says: “creating technology which can help identify the most vulnerable of society; children at risk. … Although the software itself is quite powerful, it’s not something that people are going to get terribly excited about because it’s not a glossy front end; it’s a back-office product.  But what it does is very powerful, and can serve the analysis, the strategic and the operational side, and save people.  That’s my proudest thing.  Absolutely.”

Pamela has been magistrate for the Thames Valley since 2006. In 2010 she was invited to join the Government’s SME Panel under David Cameron’s government which helps inform the Government about spreading opportunities across small businesses rather than focusing on the main suppliers.

She says that finding the time to do these things gives her a mental break from Infoshare and time to think about other things which she believes is a healthy thing.  She adds: “It’s all about fairness, that’s a common theme that runs through every part of what I do. There’s always a way to find time to do things you believe in.”

Looking to the future of challenges around data integrity, Pamela says: “I think it will be a case of every organisation, particularly those dealing with sensitive data, will have an automatic way of knowing that they’re dealing with good data, it’s going to be an absolute necessity.” She points to city centre customers accessing more and more of their own information with organisations and adds: “they will demand for that information to be accurate and up to date, so from that perspective, I think it’s a very comfortable environment to be in. I certainly don’t have any concerns about that, other than those companies that believe that AI will solve the issues of data integrity, because of course AI needs data to be accurate before it can actually be effective.”

She identifies the problem as a mix of culture, process and people, adding: “It’s an understanding that a glossy piece of kit is not necessarily going to be the answer to all of their issues. People needing to challenge more.”

Identifying how society has benefitted from the work Pamela and Infoshare have done she says: “Society has benefited only in so much that our clients have been able to identify or solve more crimes; identify vulnerable citizens, identify and support children at risk. We’ve had many, many examples where lives have been saved as a result of the knowledge about them. … It’s the sharing of that information from a community perspective that enables people to be supported in a much more targeted strategic fashion than the scattergun approach that has previously been applied.  I think that’s the biggest outcome.”

Looking at the impact of technology more widely in the future, Pamela says: “If you’d have asked me this a few years ago, it would have been a very narrow answer, but now, I think every single industry pretty much is considered a technology industry. …I think it’s incredibly exciting, and it’s going to be more automated. We’re going to be able to make faster, better choices.  I hope that technology is going to help drive the push towards a greener environment.

“Technology used well is fundamental to every industry that we touch and we work in at the moment.  But there is also, of course, technology that is not for used good, that is more concerning, in terms of surveillance, of immoral usage of it, whether it’s accessing people’s personal information, whether it’s enabling fraud. I think there’s a real balance we need to strike; technology’s wonderful, but only when it’s used well and for the good of the people.”

Asked what advice she would give to girls considering a career in tech, Pamela says: “Believe in yourself.  If you’ve got an idea, put it forward. … If you’re really passionate, knowledgeable or passionate about something, let that come out.  Don’t be shy, don’t hold yourself back. It’s not always about being right; it’s about having the confidence to put your point of view forward, and having the confidence to walk into a room and believe in what you’re doing.  Even if you’re nervous as anything, just having that belief will really pay dividends; people will be far more likely to want to engage with you even they don’t agree with you.”

Pamela also advises young people to consider what size of organisation they join as they all offer different experiences that will suit different people at different stages of their lives.

She says: “If you have a passion for technology you really need to think about how do you want that to be used?  There’s are several routes. The classic one is going to the large organisations like the key suppliers to Government for example, the big technology organisations. Here, you’re going to be a small fish in a huge bowl, you learn a huge amount in a short space of time and have security but your influence may be limited.

“Then you’ve got the middle ground, companies like mine who are growing, who are successful, where you can learn a lot but it’s kind of on the fly, it’s less structured, but it’s secure in the knowledge that you’ve got healthy cashflows, you’ve got good growth margins, and you get in front of clients, but you may not have the training that you get from the large organisations.

“Or do you go for the real small start-ups, where you can actually take a risk and really use the passion and knowledge that you have, the limited experience but the huge learning that you’ve gone through, to make a difference with a start-up and get involved right at the very beginning, and not be frightened to do that. The time to do that is before you’ve got a mortgage and huge overheads, where you can really throw yourself into something that you believe in at the beginning.

Really think about which area you feel more comfortable in and what’s your appetite for risk.”

Interviewed by Jane Bird

Date: 19 August 2021

Transcribed by: Susan Hutton

Abstracted by: Linda Feeley